I suppose it's not, we just have a different approach to how and what games get made by a team effort.

define 'time waster' and 'messer' what is it that you think fits into a criteria like that?

Someone who says they are a programmer but have nothing to actually let people play, or someone who says they're an artist but have nothing to actually look at, but who will do a lot of talking about game projects they want to start(=be the founder/boss and make all the decisions) which is all based on a paragraph or two in a forum.

It doesn't even need to be much, especially considering programming, I fully understand that someone could have excellent skills and experience, while not having anything they can ZIP up and share around, for various reasons, but anything is better than nothing.

I don't know of any community that is, from the ground-up, geared toward preventing that or at least segregating that into different categories.  If not, then it's just like yet another gamedev community, of which there are plenty enough around already, and this whole discussion is rather pointless.

If they have no examples of their work, or cannot show examples of their work then is that not enough to suggest they are not serious, or a 'time waster'? 

Also what if they are serious but they just dont have the funds they need to make their project a reality? Coz the code or art they need is out of reach due to financial strains, or no one wanting to do the work for nothing,(especially the pros) thus leading to no portfolio for either.

you right their are good reasons for not tell all about your project idea for fear of someone stealing it and what not so it makes it a lot harder to generate the interest from particular parties. Game programming is one thing, game art is another, both of which cannot exist without the ideas of someone, which is the foundation of how its starts. Maybe we're looking at this wrong.

you can't really weedle them out, so as it is examples are the only real way to make a determination whether or not it's worth working with someone in a team, having something that does separate or isolates can maybe cause a confliction of interest as they could well form of the community that has the say with what's voted on.

My philosophy is there are no "pure designers", especially not virgin indies.  Everyone needs a practical skill, and yes they should be weedled out if for nothing else than preventing the place being flooded with them, just to keep it clean.

This has been happening for yeeeeeeears, "here's my idea, I just need programmers and artists to do it all for me"...  if that was ever going to go anywhere it would have happened by now, but I seriously don't think it ever has.

They shouldn't feel too bad about it - it's not like they don't have the rest of the entire internet.

even pro indies were virgin indies once.:)

i get what your saying but its not something that interests me, i would consider myself a virgin indie, but not a time waster. i wish you well with that idea though. there must be like a forum thread on the software you use that has a restricted section, where the elite meet with the elites and doesnt allow newbies or inexperianced devs comment, gamemaker had one, surely the others do to for the very reason you seek matey?

Sure, but I don't think something like this exists, its own thing that is for general game development, focus on multiple upvoted projects, and a 'skills bartering' system shared among them.

It does sound elitist, but moreso it sounds like it would actually get things done, and spit out chunky-sized teams at the end.  If it brings all the right people together for the right projects, it could be awesome, because that is very difficult and very rare.

Hi Everyone,

First, let me say that I am new to this community, but have been checking out the site over the last few days for potential assets for my game(s).

Today I stumbled upon this thread and have to say I am very, very excited about what you are trying to do. I love the concept that you guys are attempting to realize here and would wholeheartedly like to be involved.

I have carefully read both pages of this thread (so far) before posting, and see that you guys have conflicting ideas about how to move forward. I like both concepts as they both seem like they would be great to be part of, just wondering if there are still plans to more forward with something.

I am not a pro developer or artist. My skillset includes many things, none of which I consider myself an 'expert' in. I graduated 'university' with a bachelor's degree in music production. I am an intermediate coder in PHP/JS/HTML, beginner coder in C++/C#. I have experimented with Unity, GameMaker and VisualStudio. I  don't consider myself an 'artist', but I am quite capable of basic 'static' asset creation and editing such as UIs, logos, etc. I am horrible at animation, but very experienced in coding and administering websites/mysql.

I believe there are plenty of talented people willing to work on a game. 

I suspect these people don't collaborate on a game project more often because their own personal idea for the game they want to create is difficult to see from outside existing game projects. 

They breifly look around, see some game projects, but don't see their own vision in them, so they start their own project. "I'm making a game. It's kinda like those other game projects, but it has all the things I didn't see in those other projects, so therefore, It's a much better project. Come join my project. I can see very clearly it's the best."

This isn't really arrognace. As far as each person is concerned, they're right. Their own project has that extra thing that will make it better... but it only seems that way because they understand their own idea, but not the other guy's.

Maybe when a new user signs up and clicks the "Submit a game project concept" button, the site first gathers information on the user's various skills: Music composition? what kinds? Chiptune? Orchestral? Modern? Electronica? Graphical art? what kinds? pixel art? vector? concept art? scenery? character portraits? Coding? What kinds? Java? Python? C#? Game design? gameplay concepts? ...and so on until their skills profile is built. A lot of people are going check those last two boxes, but unless they have more than that, the site will know they're probably just Donuts. 

Assuming they've got skills to contribute, the site asks them several categorizing questions about the game project they want to propose to the community: Is this a 2D game? 3D? Sidescrolling? 1st person perspective? RPG? what kind of RPG? JRPG? story focused? Action RPG? What makes it special? Unique leveling system? Customizable shoe laces?

Once the site has gathered a fairly detailed set of datapoints on this user's proposal, behind the scenes, the site seaches through all the existing projects looking for a high degree of similarity. If/when it finds some, it proposes them to the user:

"Hey, that's a great concept for a game. We found some people who are interested in making something like that. Check out these similar proposals already under way. If they look close enough to what you're going for, you should jump on board! They are already building momentum and I'm sure your creative input and skills would be valuable! You're much more likely to be successful if you are part of an existing game project."

The goal here is to help make people aware of projects similar to their own vision. It's better to join an existing project with momentum and a team than to just propose yet another game project that is almost exactly like hundreds of others out there. Everyone wants to be a game designer and help create the fun aspects of a game. As long as they have a skill to contribute (other than game design) we let them express their game design ideas. If you're on a team, you get to discuss features that could make the game fun and interesting. The team discusses those ideas and votes them in, out, or needs adjustment. 

Thoughts?

Ok heres an idea, but i really havent had a chance to hash it out because sadly (your like this) im working on my project.;)

the aim here is to help a community come together to forfill the requests of members seeking programmers,code, and art more effectively with incentives which hopefully drives more teams to work together, project ideas come to life more quickly, without everyone getting peed off by time wasters and wasted efforts on a project.

So, think of it for now as a Itch.io, a market place or even a directory, whichever you think fits best after you read this as an examples, where projects are uploaded, assets, code, etc. i havent figured out a layout, not important at this stage.

When signing up to this Website you can select which account you would like to have, which could be:

COMMUNITY: where you are just a member that is interested in the things on the site, but maybe has no real interest in art or programming itself, but has a few game ideas now and then. as just a 'community' member you can post threads etc, but you can also SUBMIT a game idea for other members to discuss or even the 'Elite' teams.(which i will get to in a moment). to actually work on if the community rate is worthy. ;) these members can also collect/earn XP points (il get to this in a moment too). they have a profile page to, with all sorts of activity stuff, but not sure that is important at this stage.

ART/CODE CONTRIBUTER: Someone who has no art/code abilitiys but has coding/art experiance. the profile page will list things like what they have experiance working in, like, unity,html,python etc. kind of like a advert/portfolio for them i guess. They honestly set a status of their workflow, such as amatueur, hobbiest, pro which can be set as a emoji/symbol like @Kickbrit suggests, a coffee cup. this tells other members that are looking for other developers/artists to work with whether that member has the credentials or time to work with them on a project they are making.(seeking out potiential time wasters) they also have the option to submit game ideas like the community has, but they can also REQUEST CODE or ASSETS for thier project for 'tendor' with incentive of 'CP points' being awarded. Now these requests are forfilled by other ART/CODE CONTRIBUTER accounts and the requester can receive many 'offers'. it will be down to the requester to choose which code/asset he choses to use, but also could decide on what the community feels too should they create activity on his game page.(like a like button or something) now the time taken by the request forfiller will not be wasted as there efforts will remain on the requesters game page to show what was offered incase some comes along looking for something simular, also the requester should compensate with a 'CP points' contribution, and again not all is wasted because as a ART/CONTRIBUTION account you can sell assets on your page like you would on a market place, either for money or 'CP Points' as a new form of inhouse currency.

The idea of the 'CP Points' currency is so everyone can have at least a chance to get the code or art they need for there project if the community or devs/artists decide that there project is not worthy to do via an 'tendor' system or its just missed. I.e Pro dev wants a pro artist but cant afford it with a normal cash flow, but if that artist provides his art for sale with CP Points as well as cash then theres that chance, it would also work the other way around, artist needing dev, this could strecth to tutorship as well i suppose, but what ever evolves from that maybe. obvouisly this is not a mandatory thing its just another way for dev to get art, art to get dev that could be reachable.

ELITIST: (i wasnt sure of this but ive worked it in) OK Elitist accounts are for devs artists that have a focus on targeting projects that have been asked for by the community only, and not there own projects. this account is not designed for a creating code or assets for sale but has potential to help themselves to maybe an infinate 'CP points' to get the project the community has asked for finished in a more desireble quicker method. Fulltime coders an artists and not part time hobiests. This account is not stricltly open to anyone, maybe a certain ranking or xp points gets you there, and  other Coders,artists that can 'Vouch' for there work rate and skills, and or adminstrative node that says you can be an elitist.

now because the communitys can vote on gaems as well as earn xp points, they can maybe exchange there xp points for cp points and donate to  what ever artists/developers that want to help to get there requests forfilled, or help them buy assets/code from other members.

yeah, this is pretty well been hashed together, but maybe you can get something from it.

@MedicineStorm:  I don't think people really view their project as "better" necessarily, maybe more like "I would have done it this way" or "I prefer this style as opposed to that style". Whether it's actually better is a matter of opinion and personal preference.  I like the idea of having the ability to submit a new game project by individuals, however it should be restricted in some way. For instance, within a reputation system, a certain level of reputation must be earned within the community before that function becomes available. Also, there should be some sort of (at least basic) skill assessment implemented similar to CodeFights to gain insight on a person's actual skills. That way each person can be validated as capable of performing a given task. But having as much data as feasable about someone's skills would help identify beginners and match people to the right project.  @chasersgaming:  My initial thoughts while reading through the conversation were similar. Merging both concepts would probably be the best way to go about it.  There could be a 'community-owned' project, where each member can choose to join a team working on a community voted project, alongside a contingent of 'independently-owned' projects that get contributed to by the community as a whole on a freelance basis. Again, a certain reputation level should be attained before allowing a new project to be started. That way people that want to work on the community project are free to do so and others can get their individual projects worked on with the currency system by contributing to other projects. Everyone is happy that way I think.  Just throwing some ideas out there for consideration.

"I don't think people really view their project as "better" necessarily, maybe more like "I would have done it this way" or "I prefer this style as opposed to that style". Whether it's actually better is a matter of opinion and personal preference..."

I agree. That is much better put.

"...the ability to submit a new game project by individuals ... should be restricted in some way. For instance, within a reputation system, a certain level of reputation must be earned within the community before that function becomes available."

Partially disagree. I think the option to submit a project proposal should be relatively direct. One of the major drivers of the existence of so many similar game projects out there is likely that everyone feels they have a good idea for a project, but aren't aware of other similar projects already out there. When someone has a project idea, you can't tell them "don't tell me your idea until you've listened to my idea." It just drives them away. I think we should say "yeah, tell me about your idea." then we show them the projects that are similar. That doesn't mean all new projects are displayed prominantly immediately, but I feel like much much fewer people would join the community if they felt like they had to wait and prove themselves before they were allowed to participate in that part. Kind of like how Itch.io allows new users to submit games, even if they haven't proven themselves capable of making a decent game yet. There are a lot of total garbage games on itch, but they do a pretty good job of displaying the good stuff up front. You're not wrong, though. Reducing the number of duplicate, nearly-identical, or immature project proposals is a major goal.

"Also, there should be some sort of (at least basic) skill assessment implemented similar to CodeFights to gain insight on a person's actual skills."

Great idea! I'm not sure how to approach a graphical arts or sound engineering skills assessment. At least not automated. Code-fight's method allows the assessment to need no human judging. Is there a way to do the same thing with pixel art, concept art, sound effects production, etc.? EDIT: I think a quick skills assessment could serve the function of "prove yourself before submitting a proposal". It would be direct enough that people wouldn't be turned away. It'd probably only take 5 to 10 minutes. I'm not opposed to disallowing proposal submissions for Donut users, so if they have no skills to assess (game design doesn't count) they don't get to propose game projects yet.

You make a good point about not driving people away, but I think the focus should be on adding projects that have at least been given some degree of planning and/or commitment by the creator. You might end up with hundreds of dead projects that never even get worked on. Your idea of collecting information about the project and screening them, along with some basic skills assesment would certainly help with ensuring that new projects are at least somewhat viable. Maybe the submission process could even include a step by step planning system to help define a project, kinda like a website builder or something.

As far as how to asses graphics or audio skills, it would probably be easiest to make it a series of text questions relating to general procedures. Could even go so far as to create an app that scores tasks as the user does them in a test environment, although that seems like it would be overly complicated to facilitate.

Yeah, we'll probably have to balance the level of "not driving people away" vs "not having a bunch of dead projects", but I think some level of dead projects at the bottom of the barrel is acceptable in exchange for wider community attraction. We can clean out month-old dead projects fairly easily with an automated script, I'm sure. After all, there is some pretty terrible art here on OGA because we accept pretty much everything. People don't usually see it much because it doesn't get favorited so it doesn't show up in the "popular this week" or "featured art". Never-the-less, the fact that anyone can post art here helps newbs learn their craft and broaden community participation. A lot of artists think they suck but submit anyway because of our open-arms policy. Turns out they're pretty great at it and they wouldn't have discovered that if we had said "proven artists only. novices need not apply."

@medicinestorm, you pretty much describe what it is ive been trying to say in like 4 sentences, hahahahahah. :)

i dont like the idea of isolating completely the newbs (as i am one) because of what can be learned and is learnt, but at the same time i can understand the cons of having a saturated site of endless nothingness, and pros getting the ump with all the newbs type stuff. just wanting to crack on without waving through the endless fog searching for fellow pros.. Ranking, points sytem could be the answer to put a 'spectrum' in place, maybe controled by other pros a like, think of how a 'Masons' work (secret hand shakes) perhaps only reputable pros who knows each other can vote(black ball) them into the elite, where it opens up sections of the website, where the newbs cant get to, but still have the rest for the rest, thaqt have yet to prove themselves.

I could help.

I think MedicineStorm has the right idea, to make it a fundamental function of the website itself to gauge whether a user has potential to be an active and capable developer right from the moment they sign up.  The registration process itself should make it pretty clear that it's about getting teams together and getting projects finished, a community effort, and nothing less.  Infact, it would be funny if "game designer" was automatically ticked and greyed-out.

I don't think having a closed "elitist" section is good, anyone should be able to read any part of the site, even if they can't post there.  It would be a great learning tool in itself, for everyone to read how the doers are actually doing the do. :)  So long as people can update their profile at any time, at any moment they could be classified as a "machine" in the "development factory" instead of a "talker" in the "junkyard of dreams".

Good idea!

I wouldn't mind something like this trade or barter for skills swaps  

For those interested in the skills barter part, what skills would you want to offer and what skills would you be seeking? I'd Like to get an idea of how it might shake out.

I'm offering programming, scripting, code debugging, and training in pretty much any language (I'm polyglot)

I'm seeking tile-based pixel art (32x32), portrait art, scenery art, sound effects.

Hey medical S I didn't want to take over this persons post but when you guys started talking about horse trading I thought it was good idea to post before it was lost in the old topic dungeon.

I did start one on unity site before the switched over to everyone not being able to post stuff  Only got one taker and that didn't pan out very good.

As for my part I can do portrait art 2d background and items in 3d then rendered as icons or a paint over to look like 2d pixs or lowerd bit, any and all 3d workwork high poly low poly retopo rigging animation UV map texture blah blah 

as for what I'm looking for is a c# for unity script

I would like to offer pixel art sprites, tilesets, level design, with an aim for authenticity with retro consoles, NES, SMS, SNES, MD etc.

not looking right now, but would be interested in being taught GameMaker studio 2 extensions and networking. :)

I can do some basic non-animated 2D pixel art and UI design, and I have been working in both Superpowers (TypeScript) and GameMaker (GML) lately. I could probably do C# code for Unity as well, although I haven't worked too in depth with that yet. I understand the basics of code so it's just a matter of learning the syntax.

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